(And note: it's a parable, a story with a lesson, not necessarily a description of actual conditions in the after-life, especially when you become too technical. "For your sister Sodom was not a byword in your mouth in the days of your pride, "before your wickedness was uncovered. "Gehenna (Gei Hinnom) became the common lay-stall garbage dump of the city, . Salvation does not have to be eternal. Jerome is one, Christ may be another. I am talking about the entire early Church, which did not adhere to your universal salvation theology. The people in the surrounding areas dumped their trash in Gehenna, where it burned day and night. The idea is that the Valley of Hinnon laid just south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls,and that all the refuse and waste from Jerusalem was burned there, and it was pretty much the most disgusting and horrifying place on earth. It differs from the neutral-leaning Sheol as Gehenna was considered a type of waiting room; the longest one can be there is 11 or 12 months with few exceptions. The gulf represents the uncrossable separation it is not meant to keep the saved from going over there because they have no reason to do so, as they are with God and His people. Some people use this historical tidbit to make a point either to paint a picture how foul, vivid and terrible hell would be, or alternately to suggest that there is no eternal hell, and the references Jesus makes to the fires of hell and torment was simply a reference to this burning trash pile. You are confusing the matters under discussion at the time whith what others wrote at other times. If it was not condemned, it was because it wasn't widespread and there were more pressing issues. But you making another mistake: so seem to think that if Jude and Ezekiel contradicted each other, such a contradiction could be solved by your screwed universalist theology. The three parables you mention also do not say how long the consequences for failure last or whether there is anything else to take place afterward. Gehenna is a real place. It is also very instructive to study the writings of the early church fathers and church history to see how prevalent a belief universal salvation was, and then compare the conditions that surrounded the second council at Constantinople where they decided that a confession of belief in an eternal hell was one of the conditions for being accepted into "the church". Consider this myth to be thoroughly debunked. Gehenna was a burning trash dump outside Jerusalem. I find it much easier to explain passages such as Matthew 25:46 in light of the above verses. Put simply, there is no evidence that the valley was, in fact, a perpetually burning garbage dump. Rate: Ohio Serpent Mound in the News If 'aeturnum' always means 'eternal' then Jerome put his foot in his mouth when he wrote this. Should a Complementarian Speak with Lady Preachers? Gehenna was not a dump outside Jerusalem. "The three parables you mention also do not say how long the consequences for failure last or whether there is anything else to take place afterward.". There simply is no evidence to support the idea, but because it seems a reasonable explanation for the origin of the Hinnom Valley as hell, writers and preachers accept and propagate the story. Out of six major "seminaries" ". Though only for a while, but of course his being rejected is not related to any universalist teaching (if he held such, which is not undisputed), which were not the issue in 381. For all those who think that the 2 times eternal in Mat.25:46 must be the same is talking nonsense,in 5 other verses it also happens and in those it cannot be the same at all.Romans 16:25-26 and Titus 1:2 and Galatians 1:4-5 and Ephesians 3:9-11 and 1 Timothes 6:17-19 So how you explain that hell is pagan nonsense God is love!!! and rules called canons. Topheth has been ready for the king for a long time now. It will not end, it will just no longer pertain to an 'aion' or time period. OR look at a verse like this and at least rethink the idea that worms die and fires are quenched . And can we actualle be cartain about the identity of Sodom and her daughters? Even if they are used to describe God as "the aionian God" they do not have to mean eternal. You can also spare us quasi-racist ideas like >>legalistic "glasses" that came into the church from the Latin converts<<, Jude 1:7 "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. McBride has more details and the sources in his post. Gehenna, or the valley of Hinnom, is an actual valley in the city of Jerusalem. This passage appears to me about the situation immediately after God's victory, so it is surely not placed during a time when the New Jerusalem has already been established for a long time. Rather than restate much that has been said before, let me just point you and any interested readers to a couple of articles on the issue of eternal punishment (which was not the subject of this post). Also, to pin this on one word is a common folly. As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases. Thanks for the article, I have always wanted to see some evidence for calling associating Gehenna with a burning trash heap. In Hebrew, the Valley of Hinnom was 'Ge Hinnom' which transliterated into Greek became 'Gehenna.' Because of its history of infant sacrifice and idol worship, the area was associated with desecration, abominable fires . Thats the earliest reference we have to it- a Rabbi writing in the middle ages from Europe, not Israel, some 1100 years after Jesus was born. After the ages, there will be no need to describe Him to anyone because all will know Him fully, just as they also are known by Him now. There was not a trash pile perpetually burning. Why consider them 'saints'? When they fought, their teeth would make a gnashing sound. You clearly havened thought the whole matter through and would trade in salvation for 20th century sensibilities. Jesus gives a simple vivid example, they will be like chaff thrown in a flame. If it had been one, we would expect to find evidence. Will those who survive not be able to believe that they are really safe until they go out and look at the corpses of those who persecuted them and cast them out? New garbage was piled on top of the old decaying garbage: rotting fish, slimy vegetation, decaying human refuse of every imaginable sort. must be explained away if you want to cling to a doctrine of eternal torture. He remarked, Gehenna is a repugnant place, into which filth and cadavers are thrown, and in which fires perpetually burn in order to consume the filth and bones; on which account, by analogy, the judgement of the wicked is called Gehenna.. If this parable is supposed to teach anything about punishment in the afterlife, you would think that this gulf would not be necessary. With the common sense which often characterizes Jewish commentators, Kimhi says that the place was the dump of the city, where fires were always kept burning to destroy the refuse; therefore the judgment of the wicked is parabolically called Gehenna.But from the Biblical references the place appears to have nothing physically objectionable about it; in contrast to its contemporary condition Jeremiah prophesied that it would one day be called Valley of Slaughter (The Holy City and Gehenna, JBL 27/1 [1908], 34). When death is destroyed the only thing left is life. Voting for the Political Party of Infanticide in 2020 is Great Says JD Greear. "I doubt I will convince you of anything and I don't have time to continue a running debate, but every time I go through this process, I learn something so it has been worth it.". And, Christ's wonderful promise into banality? The interpretive contortions the universalists and eternal tormenters engaged in made my head hurt! In Isaiah 30:33, it is referred to as Topheth, a horrible, fearsome place: "Its fire pit has been made deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream . What does a 2000-year-old garbage dump have to do with us, in modern America? DIANA is a world leader in natural functional solutions for the food, pet food, nutraceuticals, aquaculture and cosmetics industries, and technology leader in plant cell culture, dedicated to the production of active ingredients for food, cosmetics and health. After all, Samaria did not return either but found successors that, though unconneceted with the northern kingdom, called themselves Samaritans. Perhaps waste products from the lambs were thrown there or pethaps some lambs were slain outside the city walls, but I had never heard this. The doors were certainly locked as long as the wedding feast endures. There are quite a few verses in the gospel expressing the same idea in different words, e.g. There were people in Rome long after universalism was known in the church, whom Augustine called Christians, who believed in universal salvation, and still no decree from any council stating that a belief in an "eternal hell" was necessary to sound faith. If the trash dump was burning or not - I don't know. "At least until a council comes along decades later and says that anyone not confessing a belief in an "eternal hell" is not a Christian? It is translated "hell" every time. Punishment of this type is eternal. The verses are clearly parallel, so that eternal MUST mean the same for the blessed and the cursed. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is retributive and vindictive. In Mark 9 is Jesus taking a literal prophecy in Isaiah and using it as a parable of something "eternal"? Isaiah closes his book with these words: Isaiah 66:24 (ESV) And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. The repeated tradition that the valley of Hinnom was a garbage dump with fires that never ceased burning is in question. One should also remember that archeology developers it's conclusions from the remains of history and of necessity because of the often small amount found makes wrong conclusions. There is a lot of other stuff about fallen spirits changing form, etc., that makes it understandable how he would get into trouble. I can use the common meaning of words in scripture. 66:24 says "The THEY SHALL GO FORTH". They ignore the nature of both worms and fire to protect their doctrine of an eternal hell. I've always thought that this was an established fact. The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna - Dr. Michael Heiser The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna Posted by DrHeiser | Apr 7, 2011 | AAG, Afterlife / Sheol / Hades, Ancient Sites & Archaeology, NakedBible, New Testament | That's the title of this worthwhile post from Todd Bolen. Gehenna is the Greek version of the biblical word Gehinnom or Gei Hinnom (the valley of Hinnom Joshua 15:8). You will forgive me that I will not go and read through all the parables but if I have immediately three springing to mind that teach a final, unchangeable judgement than I don't need to have dozens others agree with that or read anything into them. It is not difficult to see, from these and other texts (e.g., 2 Kgs 23:10; 2 Chr 28:3, 33:6; Jer 32:35), why Jesus and his contemporaries used the word Gehenna (valley of Hinnom) as synonymous with the place of everlasting fiery torment. The moth does die. The Gehenna Valley was thus a place of burning sewage, burning flesh, and garbage. Of course, since it was a garbage dump, it was necessary to keep the garbage burning in order to reduce the stench and to limit the number of flies and rats. He does not tell us where he got that information from and that is all we hear of it. Not only that, if there were any doubt, Jesus is further clarifying what was already mentioned in Daniel 12:2 eternal is an appropriate word for the English translation. [Are you serious? Can you confirm whether this was traditional practice? It doesn't say whether anyone would do that. One question to ask about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus Why the need for a gulf to keep those in Abraham's bosom from going to the other side where there was torment? In fact, near as anyone can tell, the earliest mention we have of this theory comes a Rabbi named David Kimhi who wrote a commentary on Psalm 27 in the 13th Century. ", Ezekiel 16:55 "When thy sisters, SODOM AND HER DAUGHTERS SHALL RETURN TO THEIR FORMER ESTATE, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.". If you are a leader, want to be a leader, or can spell the word leader, this message is for you. 'Valley of the son of Hinnom' [1]) is a historic valley surrounding Ancient Jerusalem from the west and southwest. But note that Sodom has not returned to its former state, so I doubt your literalist reading is correct. Dig down into and youll find evidence if garbage, followed by a ruined temple and burnt child sacrifices. Does that make the Bible false? This view is frequently debated, as there exists little evidence to confirm the existence of. I brought up a similar situation in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. I just got done reading Rob Bell's new book, and he relies heavily on this garbage myth as evidence that Jesus' teachings on hell are metaphorical. I confused the council of Nicea with the Nicene Creed that came out of the council at Constantinople later on. It is never used by Jesus, and is only found in three places in the new testament, Acts 22:5 and 26:11 where Paul is talking about his 'punishment' of Christians before his conversion, and in Hebrews 10:29 where the context again is between those who adhere to the old covenant in opposition to the new, only this time the tables are turned. the creed), negative condemnations ("Whosover says . The valley was the scene of human sacrifices, burned in the worship of Moloch (2 Kings 16:3 and 21:6), which accounts for the prophecy of Jeremiah that it would be called the Valley of Slaughter under judgment of God (Jer. Councils made positive definition of faith (e.g. Obviously, this fire is not still burning today, so this fire had an "age to come" or better put a "forever result" quality to it vs. a duration quality to it. If eternal hell doctrine is so clearly taught in scripture as we have been told, where was the protest over these men even being allowed to attend the council, much less play major roles? . Neither says anything about eternal punishment being only temporary. The version I read was that after human sacrifice in the Hinnom valley ceased, it was then used as a rubbish dump. It is possible to use a word, like aionian, to make a statement of fact, without being forced to use it as a statement of limitation. Outline of Biblical Usage [?] That little valley is a likely spot. Who in their right mind would want to cross over? All in all it points to a figurative description rather than a literal. Why should anyone want to go out when God and all his people and everything good is inside. I don't and hence I will make this a short one. This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a . Ive always thought that this was an established fact. James A. Montgomery observes this medieval commentator's logic, but does not accept it. And he talks about those going this way because that is what the rich man asks for, for someone in heaven to come and alleviate his suffering. Then he quotes Peter Head, G. R. Beasley-Murray, and Lloyd Bailey in tracing the origin of this notion to Rabbi David Kimchi in AD 1200. Everlasting is only aionios in Greek, so that everlasting hell becomes only age-during garbage dump, the age being not 2011 but just AD 70. Revelation 9:6 says, And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. The move is part of its restructuring following the acquisition of Neovia in 2019 for US$1.81bn. Scholars have long claimed that Gehenna was a garbage dump where fires were burned. Most bibles that have copious cross-references for other verses with similarities like this strangely do not have any for this one.). By your rationale, the "everlasting life" Jesus promised really only meant life until AD 70. If it were "eternal pruning" and this doesn't make sense to you, your problem is with Christ. And why should it? Where is the record of an uproar over them? Case in point, Jude 1:7 it says that Sodom and Gomorrah served as example of those who will suffer the punishment of "eternal fire". Even if I couldn't convince you, I am glad that you got something out of it. He is not being literal here, He is speaking about cutting off or getting rid of something of the carnal man. But, I agree, that Universalists play the "eternal is not always time" hand way too much! That is not a wonderful promise, that is a concept more horrific and disturbing than anything any horror writer could come up with. Specifically, Bailey states: I've used this illustration many times. Those who WOULD. ), the Hinnon Valley was condemned as an unholy place. By Patrick Hunt - Gehenna is an old Hebrew toponym (place name) that began as a literal, physical location - the Valley of Hinnom - and gradually transformed into a metaphor for hell through various processes including religious defilement. I doubt I will convince you of anything and I don't have time to continue a running debate, but every time I go through this process, I learn something so it has been worth it. I have no clue what v.15 you are talking about so you can spare us that. Paul turned a Christian over to satan for the DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH. No council ever did that! Still, a city the size of Jerusalem needed a dump. Calling God "The God of the ages" (aions) is stating a fact, God is God over the ages. The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna. Wild animals fought over scraps of food along the edges of the heap. What early church fathers "got into trouble" with universal salvation? Jerome also used the phrase "en aeturnum et ultra" ("in eternity and beyond") in his commantary on Collosians. I find it interesting that people use the ideas they have been taught about 'hell' being eternal and transfer that to a symbolic statement that Jesus made about worms and fire. A shorter one, posted at Grace to You: Is Hell Really Endless? You are simply ignoring these. Romans 11: "mercy to all" doesn't mean all accept it. Gehenna became a place where corpses of criminals, dead animals, and all manners of refuse were thrown to be destroyed. Thank you. Check out Matt 25:46. Rather, god gives the gift of immortality to the saved only per apostle Paul. But of course, some know-it-all flippig through pages will know it better! Thanks for posting. But just as soon as Josiah died, the Jews returned to Tophet. Eternal life doesn't mean that there is no time just as it doesn't mean there is no space. 66:24) and later with a place of judgment by fire without any special connection to Jerusalem (see, for example, 1 Enoch 27:1ff., 54:1ff., 63:3-4, and 90:26ff) (Jesus and the Kingdom of God, 376-77). It is part and parcel with the place that we normally call Hell. Even when the term "aionian" is applied to God Himself, this does not mean it is describing Him as eternal. As for the lost, per words of Jesus and apostles, they will die (wages of sin)/be destroyed/perish. There are a lot of things we need to be saved from at this point, but there will come a point when there will be nothing we need to be saved from. The name Sha'ar Ha'ashpot appears in the Book of Nehemiah 3:13-14. Saying "God is eternal" is chickening out. 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